[N8VEM: 16323] Re: 16C550C UART Auto Flow Control

[Vince Mulhollon]

On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 7:28:17 PM UTC-5, Wayne Warthen wrote:
>
>
> In some future version of Zeta, it might make sense to consider changing
> to a PLCC based UART since that is how the newer ones are all packaged and
> would allow the use of more features like auto flow control and bigger FIFO
> buffers while maintaining backward compatibility with all existing software.
>

Today I got a "part status end of life" notification from Digikey that Exar
will no longer be making their DIP 16550 and I remembered this discussion.
There's 77 new DIP uarts left in stock at Digikey as of right now... There
are other UART manufacturers, and after they're gone, they'll be pulls, but
in the long run...

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[Douglas Goodall]

Thanks Vince,

It is true that today we depend on dip harts as the primary I/O for the console. Now I would bet that 95% of us end up using serial to USB solutions and then terminal emulators. It might make sense to reverse the situation and build USB hardware on the board and do USB to serial conversion for the actual terminal users. The down side of this though is that USB is much more difficult to handle and debug than a simple polled mode uart connection. Another possibility would be to move towards the use of the propeller/parallel board as a complete console interface, and instead of moving our serial cable from one abc to another, move the parallel cable from one board to another.

Another possibility would be for us to use something like Vince Biel's terminal board, but interfaced parallel instead of serial.

I am sure Wayne Warthen and others could come up with a standard for N8VEM Parallel Console Protocol. Then we could choose the best compliant console board on the basis of price, features and performance.

Life has moved on and for the most part, computers don 't have serial ports anymore.

Douglas

---
Douglas W. Goodall
http://www.goodall.us.com


> On Oct 21, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Vince Mulhollon <vince-ARSS9zAY2dmaMJb+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 7:28:17 PM UTC-5, Wayne Warthen wrote:
>>
>> In some future version of Zeta, it might make sense to consider changing to a PLCC based UART since that is how the newer ones are all packaged and would allow the use of more features like auto flow control and bigger FIFO buffers while maintaining backward compatibility with all existing software.
>
> Today I got a "part status end of life" notification from Digikey that Exar will no longer be making their DIP 16550 and I remembered this discussion. There's 77 new DIP uarts left in stock at Digikey as of right now... There are other UART manufacturers, and after they're gone, they'll be pulls, but in the long run...
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[Tom Lafleur]

Doug...

Your wrong, computer today do have serial ports, their just masked as USB
ports... ie: serial over USB...

tom...




On Mon, Oct 21, 2013 at 1:06 PM, Douglas Goodall <douglas_goodall-***@public.gmane.org>wrote:

> Thanks Vince,
>
> It is true that today we depend on dip harts as the primary I/O for the
> console. Now I would bet that 95% of us end up using serial to USB
> solutions and then terminal emulators. It might make sense to reverse the
> situation and build USB hardware on the board and do USB to serial
> conversion for the actual terminal users. The down side of this though is
> that USB is much more difficult to handle and debug than a simple polled
> mode uart connection. Another possibility would be to move towards the use
> of the propeller/parallel board as a complete console interface, and
> instead of moving our serial cable from one abc to another, move the
> parallel cable from one board to another.
>
> Another possibility would be for us to use something like Vince Biel's
> terminal board, but interfaced parallel instead of serial.
>
> I am sure Wayne Warthen and others could come up with a standard for N8VEM
> Parallel Console Protocol. Then we could choose the best compliant console
> board on the basis of price, features and performance.
>
> Life has moved on and for the most part, computers don 't have serial
> ports anymore.
>
> Douglas
>
> ---
> Douglas W. Goodall
> http://www.goodall.us.com
>
>
> On Oct 21, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Vince Mulhollon <vince-ARSS9zAY2dmaMJb+***@public.gmane.org> wrote:
>
> On Wednesday, June 20, 2012 7:28:17 PM UTC-5, Wayne Warthen wrote:
>>
>>
>> In some future version of Zeta, it might make sense to consider changing
>> to a PLCC based UART since that is how the newer ones are all packaged and
>> would allow the use of more features like auto flow control and bigger FIFO
>> buffers while maintaining backward compatibility with all existing software.
>>
>
> Today I got a "part status end of life" notification from Digikey that
> Exar will no longer be making their DIP 16550 and I remembered this
> discussion. There's 77 new DIP uarts left in stock at Digikey as of right
> now... There are other UART manufacturers, and after they're gone, they'll
> be pulls, but in the long run...
>
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[Vince Mulhollon]

On Monday, October 21, 2013 3:06:11 PM UTC-5, douglas_goodall wrote:
>
> I am sure Wayne Warthen and others could come up with a standard for N8VEM
> Parallel Console Protocol. Then we could choose the best compliant console
> board on the basis of price, features and performance.
>

COTS bluetooth breakout board which gives those weird SMD bluetooth board a
plain ole thru hole DIP (like) package and make sure you buy a RFCOMM aka
serial emulation and not a HID aka keyboard or A2DP/AVRCP aka audio type of
bluetooth board. Feed in +5V and TTL RS232 comes out one side, RFCOMM
bluetooth out the other side. I've fooled around with bluetooth RFCOMM as
a wireless RS-232 replacement for machine consoles with widely varying
results. One disturbing fact is some bluetooth breakout boards cost more
than a raspberry pi which would be kind of overboard for a front end
processor.

Some Zigbee/Xbee stuff is cheaper, sorta, but it lacks the ability to
startup "blueterm" app on your phone/tablet and be connected to the serial
console.

One interesting parallel console would be a propeller acting as a software
UART, how about one cog for the parallel interface and the rest of the cogs
for software UARTs giving you 7 RS-232 ports for the price of about 2
traditional UARTs.

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[yoda]

Propeller does not quite work that way - I believe it takes 2 cogs to do
UART so probably 3 max ports and the software would not be trivial as you
would have to route the data and I guess virtualize as different addresses
that could be done with proper book keeping.

On Monday, October 21, 2013 3:42:15 PM UTC-5, Vince Mulhollon wrote:
>
> On Monday, October 21, 2013 3:06:11 PM UTC-5, douglas_goodall wrote:
>>
>> I am sure Wayne Warthen and others could come up with a standard for
>> N8VEM Parallel Console Protocol. Then we could choose the best compliant
>> console board on the basis of price, features and performance.
>>
>
> COTS bluetooth breakout board which gives those weird SMD bluetooth board
> a plain ole thru hole DIP (like) package and make sure you buy a RFCOMM aka
> serial emulation and not a HID aka keyboard or A2DP/AVRCP aka audio type of
> bluetooth board. Feed in +5V and TTL RS232 comes out one side, RFCOMM
> bluetooth out the other side. I've fooled around with bluetooth RFCOMM as
> a wireless RS-232 replacement for machine consoles with widely varying
> results. One disturbing fact is some bluetooth breakout boards cost more
> than a raspberry pi which would be kind of overboard for a front end
> processor.
>
> Some Zigbee/Xbee stuff is cheaper, sorta, but it lacks the ability to
> startup "blueterm" app on your phone/tablet and be connected to the serial
> console.
>
> One interesting parallel console would be a propeller acting as a software
> UART, how about one cog for the parallel interface and the rest of the cogs
> for software UARTs giving you 7 RS-232 ports for the price of about 2
> traditional UARTs.
>

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[Wayne Warthen]

I am under the impression that production of 16550 style serial chips
continues in the form of PLCC devices which are extremely easy to work
with... In fact, I prefer them over DIP.

[AG5AT]

Wayne, it seems that both Mouser and Jameco have a "D" model of the chip in dip 40. Not cheap at $7 apeice.

Aug

[Paul Birkel]

http://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/UART.html

16C550 40-pin DIP = $3.99

Not that much different, price-wise, than "the competition", and
better-featured (FIFO) than most.

On Sat, Oct 26, 2013 at 9:29 AM, AG5AT <atreubig-***@public.gmane.org> wrote:

> Wayne, it seems that both Mouser and Jameco have a "D" model of the chip
> in dip 40. Not cheap at $7 apeice.
>
> Aug
>
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[Wayne Warthen]

Hmmm... I don't see a 16C550D in DIP 40. Can you post a link to the exact
product?

Thanks!

Waynne

On Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:29:07 AM UTC-7, AG5AT wrote:
>
> Wayne, it seems that both Mouser and Jameco have a "D" model of the chip
> in dip 40. Not cheap at $7 apeice.
>
> Aug
>

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[Wolfgang Kabatzke]

Am 26.10.2013 19:40, schrieb Wayne Warthen:
> Hmmm... I don't see a 16C550D in DIP 40. Can you post a link to the
> exact product?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Waynne
>
> On Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:29:07 AM UTC-7, AG5AT wrote:
>
> Wayne, it seems that both Mouser and Jameco have a "D" model of
> the chip in dip 40. Not cheap at $7 apeice.
>
> Aug
>
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Hello Wayne,

here is the link to an 16C550 in DIP40.

Regards


Wolfgang

http://www.reichelt.de/UARTs/TL-16C550-CN/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=2&ARTICLE=21565&GROUPID=2947&artnr=TL+16C550+CN



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[Wolfgang Kabatzke]

Sorry,

it was my mistake ... 16c550C is not 16C550D / 16C550DI. They are onlay
avilable in

24BGA MICROSTAR JUNIOR, 32QFN, 48LQFP, 48TQFP


Best regards



Wolfgang

Am 26.10.2013 19:54, schrieb Wolfgang Kabatzke:
> Am 26.10.2013 19:40, schrieb Wayne Warthen:
>> Hmmm... I don't see a 16C550D in DIP 40. Can you post a link to the
>> exact product?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Waynne
>>
>> On Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:29:07 AM UTC-7, AG5AT wrote:
>>
>> Wayne, it seems that both Mouser and Jameco have a "D" model of
>> the chip in dip 40. Not cheap at $7 apeice.
>>
>> Aug
>>
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> Hello Wayne,
>
> here is the link to an 16C550 in DIP40.
>
> Regards
>
>
> Wolfgang
>
> http://www.reichelt.de/UARTs/TL-16C550-CN/3/index.html?&ACTION=3&LA=2&ARTICLE=21565&GROUPID=2947&artnr=TL+16C550+CN
>
>
>
> --
> Dr.-Ing. Wolfgang Kabatzke
> Hansastrasse 9
>
> DE - 21 502 Geesthacht
> Deutschland / Germany
>
> Phone: [phone] NEW!!!
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[Wolfgang Kabatzke]

Sorry,

it was my mistake ... 16c550C is not 16C550D / 16C550DI. They are only
avilable in

24BGA MICROSTAR JUNIOR, 32QFN, 48LQFP, 48TQFP


Best regards



Wolfgang


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[AG5AT]

Mouser 926-PC16550DN/NOPB
*JameCo *1998061

Aug

On Saturday, October 26, 2013 12:40:37 PM UTC-5, Wayne Warthen wrote:
>
> Hmmm... I don't see a 16C550D in DIP 40. Can you post a link to the exact
> product?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Waynne
>
> On Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:29:07 AM UTC-7, AG5AT wrote:
>>
>> Wayne, it seems that both Mouser and Jameco have a "D" model of the chip
>> in dip 40. Not cheap at $7 apeice.
>>
>> Aug
>>
>

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[Wayne Warthen]

Thanks Aug, that helps. Now I see what you are talking about.

This part is the PC16550D. Even though it has a 'D' suffix, it is not
comparable to the TL16C550D. Both the PC16550D and the TL16C550D have 16
byte FIFO's. However, only the TL16C550D has auto flow control.
Unfortunately, the TL16C550D is not produced in a DIP 40 package. To put
it another way, the PC16550D is functionally equivalent to the TL16C550A.

Thanks,

Wayne


On Saturday, October 26, 2013 1:06:03 PM UTC-7, AG5AT wrote:
>
> Mouser 926-PC16550DN/NOPB
> *JameCo *1998061
>
> Aug
>
> On Saturday, October 26, 2013 12:40:37 PM UTC-5, Wayne Warthen wrote:
>>
>> Hmmm... I don't see a 16C550D in DIP 40. Can you post a link to the
>> exact product?
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Waynne
>>
>> On Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:29:07 AM UTC-7, AG5AT wrote:
>>>
>>> Wayne, it seems that both Mouser and Jameco have a "D" model of the chip
>>> in dip 40. Not cheap at $7 apeice.
>>>
>>> Aug
>>>
>>

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[Jim Strickland]

At the risk of resurrecting an old thread, I'm unclear from the above
discussion whether changing from my existing 16450 uart to a 550a or beyond
actually gets me dtr/cts flow control. I know there are options for it in
the rom config, but I'm not clear if it turns out that the uarts do
anything useful with it turned on. Could someone clarify this please?

-JRS

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[John Coffman]

Jim,

As I remember the discussion several months back, the DIP version of the
16C550 did not have auto RTS/CTS flow control working. However, the
PLCC version does. The thing the 550 gives you is the 16-byte FIFO
queue, if you enable it.

--John



On 12/18/2013 12:47 PM, Jim Strickland wrote:
> At the risk of resurrecting an old thread, I'm unclear from the above
> discussion whether changing from my existing 16450 uart to a 550a or
> beyond actually gets me dtr/cts flow control. I know there are options
> for it in the rom config, but I'm not clear if it turns out that the
> uarts do anything useful with it turned on. Could someone clarify this
> please?
>
> -JRS
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[Wayne Warthen]

John has it exactly right.

The one option I have found to get hardware flow control working is the NXP
16C560B if you can source one. I found them at UTSource. They are totally
compatible with 16C550C, come in DIP package, and hardware flow control
works.

--Wayne

On Wednesday, December 18, 2013 9:17:27 PM UTC-8, John Coffman wrote:
>
> Jim,
>
> As I remember the discussion several months back, the DIP version of the
> 16C550 did not have auto RTS/CTS flow control working. However, the
> PLCC version does. The thing the 550 gives you is the 16-byte FIFO
> queue, if you enable it.
>
> --John
>
>
>
> On 12/18/2013 12:47 PM, Jim Strickland wrote:
> > At the risk of resurrecting an old thread, I'm unclear from the above
> > discussion whether changing from my existing 16450 uart to a 550a or
> > beyond actually gets me dtr/cts flow control. I know there are options
> > for it in the rom config, but I'm not clear if it turns out that the
> > uarts do anything useful with it turned on. Could someone clarify this
> > please?
> >
> > -JRS
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[Jim Strickland]

Okay, thanks fellows. Now I just have to figure out how necessary it is. Is there flow control happening between the PPP and the Zeta? (The problem I'm trying to solve is overruns from the keyboard to wordstar.)

-JRS

[Max Scane]

Are you using a PC keyboard connected to the PPP? I don't think getting an
overrun would be possible as everything is synchronous.

If you are using the serial port, overruns at 38400 is more likely
especially if you are using function keys that send multiple characters.
First step I think would be to slow down your baud rate (maybe 19200 or
9600) to see if it improves. The other possibility is to check out your
terminal program and see if it has the ability to set a delay between
characters.


Regards,

Max


On Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 9:41 AM, Jim Strickland <ubergeek72-***@public.gmane.org>wrote:

> Okay, thanks fellows. Now I just have to figure out how necessary it is.
> Is there flow control happening between the PPP and the Zeta? (The problem
> I'm trying to solve is overruns from the keyboard to wordstar.)
>
> -JRS
>
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[Jim Strickland]

I'm currently using a serial terminal, but once I get a couple more pieces of software working on the Zeta, I'm planning to use the keyboard on the PPP. Hence my question. If the PPP can't get out of sync, then there's no particular urgency in replacing my uart, even if it is a 16450.

So what you've said answers it pretty well. Thanks. :)

-JRS

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[Wayne Warthen]

Hi Jim,

Just a couple of comments.

Yes, once you move to using the keyboard/CRT interface on the ParPortProp,
you will not have any issues with overrun. Both the input (keyboard) and
output (CRT) are completely synchronous, so nothing is ever lost. The
parallel port interface between the ParPortProp and Zeta will never overrun
either.

You may still want to get your UART situation working better though in case
you want to do file transfers.

I will mention that although hardware flow control is an absolute solution
to UART overruns, a FIFO buffer can go a long way toward solving the
problem. Starting with the 16C550A added a 16 byte FIFO. This will
dramatically help with overruns like you are seeing now. A 16C550C in DIP
package is usually pretty easy to acquire.

--Wayne

On Friday, December 20, 2013 12:32:43 AM UTC-8, Jim Strickland wrote:
>
> I'm currently using a serial terminal, but once I get a couple more pieces
> of software working on the Zeta, I'm planning to use the keyboard on the
> PPP. Hence my question. If the PPP can't get out of sync, then there's no
> particular urgency in replacing my uart, even if it is a 16450.
>
> So what you've said answers it pretty well. Thanks. :)
>
> -JRS
>
>

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[Jim Strickland]

Good to know. Thanks.

On Friday, December 20, 2013 2:16:59 PM UTC-7, Wayne Warthen wrote:
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Just a couple of comments.
>
> Yes, once you move to using the keyboard/CRT interface on the ParPortProp,
> you will not have any issues with overrun. Both the input (keyboard) and
> output (CRT) are completely synchronous, so nothing is ever lost. The
> parallel port interface between the ParPortProp and Zeta will never overrun
> either.
>
> You may still want to get your UART situation working better though in
> case you want to do file transfers.
>
> I will mention that although hardware flow control is an absolute solution
> to UART overruns, a FIFO buffer can go a long way toward solving the
> problem. Starting with the 16C550A added a 16 byte FIFO. This will
> dramatically help with overruns like you are seeing now. A 16C550C in DIP
> package is usually pretty easy to acquire.
>
> --Wayne
>
> On Friday, December 20, 2013 12:32:43 AM UTC-8, Jim Strickland wrote:
>>
>> I'm currently using a serial terminal, but once I get a couple more
>> pieces of software working on the Zeta, I'm planning to use the keyboard on
>> the PPP. Hence my question. If the PPP can't get out of sync, then there's
>> no particular urgency in replacing my uart, even if it is a 16450.
>>
>> So what you've said answers it pretty well. Thanks. :)
>>
>> -JRS
>>
>>

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