[N8VEM: 19611] N8 Questions

Discussion:

RichLeary

2015-05-20 06:08:13 UTC

A few months ago I bought a couple of N8-2312 boards and I am now close to
finishing one. A few questions have come up and I ask for some help. The
questions are:

a. I said I bought N8-2312 boards but actually my boards appear to be
N8-4314 boards. If 4314 were just a date code (e.g., week 43, year 2014)
of the board manufacturer I do not think I would care. However my boards
are not the same as the N8-2312 boards that I have seen photos of on the
N8VEM PBWorks site. I have not tried to do a complete trace check as that
would be nearly impossible. There is at least one dramatic change that does
not appear on the schematics or board layout. Adjacent to RR6 (between RR6
and JP12) is K1, a 1x3 header. It does not show on the schematic and none
of the builders photos show it and how it should be jumpered. Please
clarify? Are there other changes?
b. I have seen at least two different photographs showing how P50 should be
jumpered. One shows the two jumpers going left and right and the other
shows them going up and down. The board is oriented so the large N8 reads
normally. Which is correct?
c. The schematics call for 74LS parts where TTL-level devices are
specified. I will use 74LS parts where my preferred family (74ALS) part is
not available but I would like feedback from anyone who has used 74ALS
family parts on the N8. I used 74ALS parts on my SBC Mk 4 and it has worked
flawlessly from the start. Can I expect the same with the N8?
d. I will target my N8 for the current UNA ROM release. What devices can be
left off the N8 for testing with the UNA ROM?
e. Is there a N8-2312 or N8-4314 jumper setting guide for CP/M 2.2?

Thanks,

Rich Leary

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John Coffman

2015-05-20 19:25:28 UTC

Permalink

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Rich, 
 
I can address two of your points: 
 
On 05/19/2015 11:08 PM, RichLeary wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:e9d1d48a-4481-4e58-9707-***@googlegroups.com"
type="cite">
<div>c. The schematics call for 74LS parts where TTL-level devices
are specified. I will use 74LS parts where my preferred family
(74ALS) part is not available but I would like feedback from
anyone who has used 74ALS family parts on the N8. I used 74ALS
parts on my SBC Mk 4 and it has worked flawlessly from the
start. Can I expect the same with the N8?</div>
</blockquote>
 
For the most part 74LS and & 74ALS parts should be
interchangeable.  The one exception, which occurred on the Mark IV
prototype, was an LS240 used in the reset circuit.  ALS could not be
substituted.  The N8 boards, both 2511 & 2312, use the 74xx14,
so substitution is possible. 
 
<blockquote
cite="mid:e9d1d48a-4481-4e58-9707-***@googlegroups.com"
type="cite">
<div>d. I will target my N8 for the current UNA ROM release. What
devices can be left off the N8 for testing with the UNA ROM? 
</div>
</blockquote>
The UNA 1.0 release had provision for the N8, but did not support
either N8 board.  UNA version 2.0 is in the works, primarily to
support the Zeta 2.  A couple of folks have beta versions already. 
Some of the core code has been streamlined, and I would like to get
some level of N8 support installed.  I just need the motivation to
get it done. 
 
May I contact you off-list to see about getting you involved in
bringing up UNA with N8 support? 
 
--John 
 
 
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RichLeary

2015-05-20 20:02:34 UTC

Permalink

John,

Thanks for the feedback. I anticipate that 74ALS will work just fine but I
will probably start with 74LS everywhere I can and then gradually replace
them with 74ALS. BTW â some ALS is becoming obsolete faster than LS. For
example some years ago I got some 74ALS14âs but when I recently tried to
replenish my stock they were all unavailable. Most devices are still OK but
I found that instance fascinating.

I would be glad to help with your UNA but need to get it up and running
with ROMWBW first. I will let you know when I am there.

Rich

Sergey

2015-05-20 21:27:14 UTC

Permalink

You can always try 74F and 74AHCT instead of 74ALS... They have similar or
better timing characteristics, and seem to be cheaper and more easily
available than ALS parts.

Regarding 74LS240/1/4 vs. other logic series I think 74LS have Schmitt
trigger on inputs while other series don't. Same applies to 74LS373/4 which
have hysteresis on clock/latch enable inputs.

Post by RichLeary
John,
Thanks for the feedback. I anticipate that 74ALS will work just fine but I
will probably start with 74LS everywhere I can and then gradually replace
them with 74ALS. BTW â some ALS is becoming obsolete faster than LS. For
example some years ago I got some 74ALS14âs but when I recently tried to
replenish my stock they were all unavailable. Most devices are still OK but
I found that instance fascinating.
I would be glad to help with your UNA but need to get it up and running
with ROMWBW first. I will let you know when I am there.
Rich

RichLeary

2015-05-20 23:04:53 UTC

Permalink

Sergey,

Thanks. I had planned to and will use 74LS24x parts for the ECB interface
area. Those devices are not initially installed and until I have a good
reason to access an ECB board they may not ever be installed.

Rich

RichLeary

2015-05-20 23:16:02 UTC

Permalink

My N8-4314 is up and running using 74ALS devices except for the 74LS14
positions that are using 74LS14's. Same is true for the 74LS06 and 07
positions. They are actual 74LSxx devices.

I jumpered the board using a mix of data from the existing data on the two
earlier board versions. I used no jumpers on K1 as it appears to be an ECB
interface related jumper set. P50 I did up and down.

I will publish a jumper setting memo in my builder notes folder.

I used a SD card that I had previously set up and used with my Mark IV.

Have not tried floppy or IDE/CF yet and am not sure which of the N8 unique
I/O devices are controlled by the existing ROM (ROMWBW 2.7.1)

Rich Leary

Wayne Warthen

2015-05-21 01:32:36 UTC

Permalink

Hi Rich,

Regarding the devices that RomWBW supports on the N8:

- Both serial ports are supported
- Floppy drives are supported
- SD Card is supported
- IDE/CF is supported, but requires config change and custom ROM build
- VDU is supported, but you will probably need to add 1 or 2 I/O wait
states and build a custom ROM
- Keyboard is supported
- Real time clock is supported (LDDS or LDP2D)
- Parallel port printer is NOT supported
- Audio is NOT support

Thanks,

Wayne

Post by RichLeary
Have not tried floppy or IDE/CF yet and am not sure which of the N8 unique
I/O devices are controlled by the existing ROM (ROMWBW 2.7.1)
Rich Leary

RichLeary

2015-05-21 04:05:19 UTC

Permalink

Wayne,

Thanks for the information. I have a lot to do but next step is probably to
test the floppy interface. I will probably not get to that until next week.

Thanks,

Rich Leary

Richard Leary

2015-06-13 18:08:36 UTC

Permalink

Wayne,

A couple of footnotes to my N8VEM Group post:

a. I used Doug Goodallâs video test routine and it looks like the 9918 is working great. I really do not need to do more with that device as I will probably stick with a serial console.

b. I do want to test the PS2 keyboard device. How do I do that?

c. I connected a 5.25 in., 1.2 MB drive to the N8. Attempts to use it fail since it looks like ROMWBW is configured for 3.5 in., 1.44 MB drives. I did try FDTST and that is clearly verifying the HW & SW are working OK. How do I configure ROMWBW for my drive? BTW â I use the same 1.2 MB drives on my S100 system so I want a common device configuration to facilitate transferring data.

I know I need to do a custom build to have the ROMWBW recognize and use my second 512KB RAN. Is that the opportunity to change the floppy device?

Thanks,

Richard A. Leary (Rich)

180 Ridge Rd

Cimarron, CO 81220

<mailto:***@gmail.com> ***@gmail.com

HOME: (970) 862-8250

FAX: (970) 862-8249

iPhone: (970) 596-7877

From: ***@googlegroups.com [mailto:***@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Warthen
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 7:33 PM
To: ***@googlegroups.com
Cc: ***@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19694] N8 Questions

Hi Rich,

Regarding the devices that RomWBW supports on the N8:

* Both serial ports are supported
* Floppy drives are supported
* SD Card is supported
* IDE/CF is supported, but requires config change and custom ROM build
* VDU is supported, but you will probably need to add 1 or 2 I/O wait states and build a custom ROM
* Keyboard is supported
* Real time clock is supported (LDDS or LDP2D)
* Parallel port printer is NOT supported
* Audio is NOT support

Thanks,

Wayne

On Wednesday, May 20, 2015 at 7:16:02 PM UTC-4, RichLeary wrote:

Have not tried floppy or IDE/CF yet and am not sure which of the N8 unique I/O devices are controlled by the existing ROM (ROMWBW 2.7.1)

Rich Leary
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Wayne Warthen

2015-06-23 22:28:23 UTC

Permalink

Hi Rich,

Comments below.

--Wayne

Post by RichLeary
Wayne,
a. I used Doug Goodallâs video test routine and it looks like the
9918 is working great. I really do not need to do more with that device as
I will probably stick with a serial console.
b. I do want to test the PS2 keyboard device. How do I do that?

If you are using RomWBW, you can issue the CP/M command "PIP CON:=CRT:".
At this point, anything you type on the keyboard should be echoed to the
console. Type ^D to exit.

Post by RichLeary
c. I connected a 5.25 in., 1.2 MB drive to the N8. Attempts to use
it fail since it looks like ROMWBW is configured for 3.5 in., 1.44 MB
drives. I did try FDTST and that is clearly verifying the HW & SW are
working OK. How do I configure ROMWBW for my drive? BTW â I use the same
1.2 MB drives on my S100 system so I want a common device configuration to
facilitate transferring data.

For RomWBW, you will need to build a custom ROM and make the following
changes:

FDMEDIA .EQU FDM120 ; FDM720, FDM144, FDM360, FDM120 (ONLY RELEVANT IF
FDENABLE = TRUE)
FDMEDIAALT .EQU FDM120 ; ALTERNATE MEDIA TO TRY, SAME CHOICES AS ABOVE
(ONLY RELEVANT IF FDMAUTO = TRUE)
FDMAUTO .EQU FALSE ; SELECT BETWEEN MEDIA OPTS ABOVE AUTOMATICALLY

This assumes you are using only 1.2MB drives and disables the automatic
format detection.

Post by RichLeary
I know I need to do a custom build to have the ROMWBW recognize and use my
second 512KB RAN. Is that the opportunity to change the floppy device?

Yes, as indicated above. By the way, the change to the config to use the
additional RAM (1024K total) is:

RAMSIZE .EQU 1024 ; SIZE OF RAM IN KB, MUST MATCH YOUR HARDWARE!!!

Post by RichLeary
Thanks,
Richard A. Leary (Rich)
180 Ridge Rd
Cimarron, CO 81220
HOME: (970) 862-8250
FAX: (970) 862-8249
iPhone: (970) 596-7877
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 20, 2015 7:33 PM
*Subject:* Re: [N8VEM: 19694] N8 Questions
Hi Rich,
- Both serial ports are supported
- Floppy drives are supported
- SD Card is supported
- IDE/CF is supported, but requires config change and custom ROM build
- VDU is supported, but you will probably need to add 1 or 2 I/O wait
states and build a custom ROM
- Keyboard is supported
- Real time clock is supported (LDDS or LDP2D)
- Parallel port printer is NOT supported
- Audio is NOT support
Thanks,
Wayne
Have not tried floppy or IDE/CF yet and am not sure which of the N8 unique
I/O devices are controlled by the existing ROM (ROMWBW 2.7.1)
Rich Leary
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Richard Leary

2015-06-23 22:53:39 UTC

Permalink

Wayne â a very enthusiastic thank you. My wife and I are heading for France and a 15 day Viking river cruise in a few days so the build will have to wait for our return in mid-July. Iâll try the keyboard in the meantime. Actually I have some 3.5 inch floppy drives so I may test that just to get a good feel for how well the floppy system is working.

Thanks

Richard A. Leary (Rich)

180 Ridge Rd

Cimarron, CO 81220

<mailto:***@gmail.com> ***@gmail.com

HOME: (970) 862-8250

FAX: (970) 862-8249

iPhone: (970) 596-7877

From: ***@googlegroups.com [mailto:***@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Wayne Warthen
Sent: Tuesday, June 23, 2015 4:28 PM
To: ***@googlegroups.com
Cc: ***@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19718] N8 Questions

Hi Rich,

Comments below.

--Wayne

On Saturday, June 13, 2015 at 11:08:40 AM UTC-7, RichLeary wrote:

Wayne,

A couple of footnotes to my N8VEM Group post:

a. I used Doug Goodallâs video test routine and it looks like the 9918 is working great. I really do not need to do more with that device as I will probably stick with a serial console.

b. I do want to test the PS2 keyboard device. How do I do that?

If you are using RomWBW, you can issue the CP/M command "PIP CON:=CRT:". At this point, anything you type on the keyboard should be echoed to the console. Type ^D to exit.

c. I connected a 5.25 in., 1.2 MB drive to the N8. Attempts to use it fail since it looks like ROMWBW is configured for 3.5 in., 1.44 MB drives. I did try FDTST and that is clearly verifying the HW & SW are working OK. How do I configure ROMWBW for my drive? BTW â I use the same 1.2 MB drives on my S100 system so I want a common device configuration to facilitate transferring data.

For RomWBW, you will need to build a custom ROM and make the following changes:

FDMEDIA .EQU FDM120 ; FDM720, FDM144, FDM360, FDM120 (ONLY RELEVANT IF FDENABLE = TRUE)

FDMEDIAALT .EQU FDM120 ; ALTERNATE MEDIA TO TRY, SAME CHOICES AS ABOVE (ONLY RELEVANT IF FDMAUTO = TRUE)

FDMAUTO .EQU FALSE ; SELECT BETWEEN MEDIA OPTS ABOVE AUTOMATICALLY

This assumes you are using only 1.2MB drives and disables the automatic format detection.

I know I need to do a custom build to have the ROMWBW recognize and use my second 512KB RAN. Is that the opportunity to change the floppy device?

Yes, as indicated above. By the way, the change to the config to use the additional RAM (1024K total) is:

RAMSIZE .EQU 1024 ; SIZE OF RAM IN KB, MUST MATCH YOUR HARDWARE!!!

Thanks,

Richard A. Leary (Rich)

180 Ridge Rd

Cimarron, CO 81220

<javascript:> ***@gmail.com

HOME: (970) 862-8250

FAX: (970) 862-8249

iPhone: (970) 596-7877

From: ***@googlegroups.com <javascript:> [mailto:***@googlegroups.com <javascript:> ] On Behalf Of Wayne Warthen
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2015 7:33 PM
To: ***@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
Cc: ***@gmail.com <javascript:>
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19694] N8 Questions

Hi Rich,

Regarding the devices that RomWBW supports on the N8:

* Both serial ports are supported
* Floppy drives are supported
* SD Card is supported
* IDE/CF is supported, but requires config change and custom ROM build
* VDU is supported, but you will probably need to add 1 or 2 I/O wait states and build a custom ROM
* Keyboard is supported
* Real time clock is supported (LDDS or LDP2D)
* Parallel port printer is NOT supported
* Audio is NOT support

Thanks,

Wayne

On Wednesday, May 20, 2015 at 7:16:02 PM UTC-4, RichLeary wrote:

Have not tried floppy or IDE/CF yet and am not sure which of the N8 unique I/O devices are controlled by the existing ROM (ROMWBW 2.7.1)

Rich Leary
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