[N8VEM: 19138] SBC188 BIOS044 question

Discussion:

Richard Cini

2014-12-24 15:38:58 UTC

Ok, itÂ¹s fixed.

I did test it with the CVDU and there was no change.

On a lark, I removed the ADIO board that I built and it started working. I
must have thrown that board on the SBC188 backplane and then set it aside
without thinking about the addresses. The ADIO was configured for port 0
(and uses 16 addresses). I pulled all of the jumpers to change the address
to 0xF0 (it uses an LS682) and it started working. Interestingly, I also
have the Dual-SD card board installed which is at 0x08 so why it wasnÂ¹t
totally barfing I donÂ¹t know.

Thanks for putting me on the right path of discovery!

Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32

From: Richard A Cini <***@verizon.net>
Reply-To: N8VEM-Post <***@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 9:23 AM
To: N8VEM-Post <***@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19137] SBC188 BIOS044 question

John â¹

ANSI. Right from the ZIP archive. I do have an operational CVDU board so if
needed I could try that version/board combo.

Rich

--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32

From: John Coffman <***@gmail.com>
Reply-To: N8VEM-Post <***@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 9:17 AM
To: N8VEM-Post <***@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19136] SBC188 BIOS044 question

Rich,

If the slower clock speed did not fix the problem, then this sounds more
like a software problem. The faster components are not going to fix this
one.

9mhz is plenty slow enough for what you have stuffed.

Now I have to see if I can reproduce the problem. You are using the ANSI
version of the BIOS?

--John

John â¹
ItÂ¹s a 16MHz clock and a Â25 memory mapping chip. This configuration has
worked perfectly since the CPU board (v.2-007) and 4MEM were built last
year. I did swap out the two 512k chips in U0/U1 but that had no impact. The
chip select chip is an ACT138 per the schematic.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 at 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19131] SBC188 BIOS044 question
I don't know offhand. What clock speed? 16Mhz is the fastest I've ever
been able to run the 4MEM with a 12ns memory mapping chip. 16Mhz is its
limit on the Mark IV, also. 16.257Mhz will not work on Mark IV.
--John

John â¹
I just Â³upgradedÂ² to the 044 version of the ROM (from 043) and noticed that
now the system memory count in the POST shows 544k (or sometimes 576k)
rather than 640k. ThatÂ¹s a difference of 64k or 96k, depending.
Any ideas why this might be? The 4MEM board was untouched.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
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John Coffman

2014-12-24 20:00:33 UTC

Permalink

Rich,

Phew! I thought there was going to be a nasty bug to trace.

The 4MEM occupies only 2 I/O addresses on the N8VEM bus: first board at
00+01, second board at 02+03, ... up to 4 boards allowed by the BIOS.
So that is why the Dual SD card, which also occupies only 2 I/O
addresses, is at 08+09.

Glad you found the trouble.

--John

Ok, it's fixed.
I did test it with the CVDU and there was no change.
On a lark, I removed the ADIO board that I built and it started
working. I must have thrown that board on the SBC188 backplane and
then set it aside without thinking about the addresses. The ADIO was
configured for port 0 (and uses 16 addresses). I pulled all of the
jumpers to change the address to 0xF0 (it uses an LS682) and it
started working. Interestingly, I also have the Dual-SD card board
installed which is at 0x08 so why it wasn't totally barfing I don't know.
Thanks for putting me on the right path of discovery!
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19137] SBC188 BIOS044 question
John ---
ANSI. Right from the ZIP archive. I do have an operational CVDU board
so if needed I could try that version/board combo.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19136] SBC188 BIOS044 question
Rich,
If the slower clock speed did not fix the problem, then this sounds
more like a software problem. The faster components are not going to
fix this one.
9mhz is plenty slow enough for what you have stuffed.
Now I have to see if I can reproduce the problem. You are using the
ANSI version of the BIOS?
--John
As a follow-up, I slowed the clock to 9MHz using an 18.432MHz
oscillator I had handy. There was no change in the board
performance. I also checked CONFIG.SYS and I had the EMM driver
installed but not the RAM drive driver, so I installed that. The
MS-RAMDRIVE driver barfs, indicating that the EMM driver isn't
loaded. So EMM4MEM that comes with the distribution is not loading
or at least not reporting any errors.
I'll see if I have the faster glue logic in-stock. The 32k chip I
know that I do not have.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19134] SBC188 BIOS044 question
Thanks John. I'll drop an 8mhz osc in today and see what happens
(I don't have a 12 I don't think). I'm using the ANSI rom right
from the distribution archive.
Out of curiosity, if the board is now only operating marginally,
would the EMM4MEM driver fail to load? Mine loads fine and doesn't
report any errors.
Sent from my iPhone

Rich,
-044 represented a major re-write of the disk-dispatch codes.
Memory / startup code should be the same, With that ROM, Wyse
version, I get 640K reported okay. I presume you are using the
ANSI version, or, perhaps, the CVDU version. Why a different
load should affect anything, I do not know..
AFAIK, wait state jumpers on the 4MEM have never had any effect,
possibly because most of the memory select lines in the 80C188
are programmed to ignore external WAIT.
If slowing the clock from 16mhz to 12/14mhz fixes the problem,
then slower components may be to blame. I would install faster
components (LS->ALS, or F) in the following locations: 32Kmem,
U10 (LS30), U24 (LS14). If a slower clock on the CPU board
changes nothing, then there may be a BDA clobber going on in the
ANSI/CVDU version of the ROM.
Don't touch the ACT138. It is a fast chip, and it MUST be CMOS
for battery backup to work.
Let me know how that clock trial works.
BTW: 4MEM may be working on the timing edge. It runs like a
charm on the Mark IV at 16mhz, but fails miserably at 16.257mhz.
Anything 16.00000 or below seems to be okay.
--John
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 7:22 PM, Richard Cini
John ---
It's a 16MHz clock and a --25 memory mapping chip. This
configuration has worked perfectly since the CPU board
(v.2-007) and 4MEM were built last year. I did swap out the
two 512k chips in U0/U1 but that had no impact. The chip
select chip is an ACT138 per the schematic.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 at 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19131] SBC188 BIOS044 question
I don't know offhand. What clock speed? 16Mhz is the
fastest I've ever been able to run the 4MEM with a 12ns
memory mapping chip. 16Mhz is its limit on the Mark IV,
also. 16.257Mhz will not work on Mark IV.
--John
On Tue, Dec 23, 2014 at 1:49 PM, Richard Cini
John ---
I just "upgraded" to the 044 version of the ROM (from
043) and noticed that now the system memory count in the
POST shows 544k (or sometimes 576k) rather than 640k.
That's a difference of 64k or 96k, depending.
Any ideas why this might be? The 4MEM board was untouched.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
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Richard Cini

2014-12-24 20:08:00 UTC

Permalink

Post by John Coffman
Rich,
Phew! I thought there was going to be a nasty bug to trace.
The 4MEM occupies only 2 I/O addresses on the N8VEM bus: first board at 00+01, second board at 02+03, ... up to 4 boards allowed by the BIOS. So that is why the Dual SD card, which also occupies only 2 I/O addresses, is at 08+09.
Glad you found the trouble.
--John

Ok, itâs fixed.
I did test it with the CVDU and there was no change.
On a lark, I removed the ADIO board that I built and it started working. I must have thrown that board on the SBC188 backplane and then set it aside without thinking about the addresses. The ADIO was configured for port 0 (and uses 16 addresses). I pulled all of the jumpers to change the address to 0xF0 (it uses an LS682) and it started working. Interestingly, I also have the Dual-SD card board installed which is at 0x08 so why it wasnât totally barfing I donât know.
Thanks for putting me on the right path of discovery!
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19137] SBC188 BIOS044 question
John â
ANSI. Right from the ZIP archive. I do have an operational CVDU board so if needed I could try that version/board combo.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19136] SBC188 BIOS044 question
Rich,
If the slower clock speed did not fix the problem, then this sounds more like a software problem. The faster components are not going to fix this one.
9mhz is plenty slow enough for what you have stuffed.
Now I have to see if I can reproduce the problem. You are using the ANSI version of the BIOS?
--John

John â
Itâs a 16MHz clock and a â25 memory mapping chip. This configuration has worked perfectly since the CPU board (v.2-007) and 4MEM were built last year. I did swap out the two 512k chips in U0/U1 but that had no impact. The chip select chip is an ACT138 per the schematic.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 at 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19131] SBC188 BIOS044 question
I don't know offhand. What clock speed? 16Mhz is the fastest I've ever been able to run the 4MEM with a 12ns memory mapping chip. 16Mhz is its limit on the Mark IV, also. 16.257Mhz will not work on Mark IV.
--John

John â
I just âupgradedâ to the 044 version of the ROM (from 043) and noticed that now the system memory count in the POST shows 544k (or sometimes 576k) rather than 640k. Thatâs a difference of 64k or 96k, depending.
Any ideas why this might be? The 4MEM board was untouched.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
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Max Scane

2014-12-28 08:01:33 UTC

Permalink

Gents,

Have you been able to boot from an SD card plugged into the Dual SD?

I partitioned up a 2 GB card into a 20 meg MSDOS partition and then did a
format/s and copied all the dos files to it without error.

However, when I try to boot from it I get "Missing Operating system"

Any thoughts?

Max

John --
Ha! Yeah, I'm glad, too. I started putting labels on all of my boards with
the port range so I don't do that again. Not all of my boards have them.
Have a great holiday, thanks again, and Happy New Year!
Sent from my iPhone
Rich,
Phew! I thought there was going to be a nasty bug to trace.
The 4MEM occupies only 2 I/O addresses on the N8VEM bus: first board at
00+01, second board at 02+03, ... up to 4 boards allowed by the BIOS. So
that is why the Dual SD card, which also occupies only 2 I/O addresses, is
at 08+09.
Glad you found the trouble.
--John
Ok, itâs fixed.
I did test it with the CVDU and there was no change.
On a lark, I removed the ADIO board that I built and it started working.
I must have thrown that board on the SBC188 backplane and then set it aside
without thinking about the addresses. The ADIO was configured for port 0
(and uses 16 addresses). I pulled all of the jumpers to change the address
to 0xF0 (it uses an LS682) and it started working. Interestingly, I also
have the Dual-SD card board installed which is at 0x08 so why it wasnât
totally barfing I donât know.
Thanks for putting me on the right path of discovery!
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19137] SBC188 BIOS044 question
John â
ANSI. Right from the ZIP archive. I do have an operational CVDU board so
if needed I could try that version/board combo.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19136] SBC188 BIOS044 question
Rich,
If the slower clock speed did not fix the problem, then this sounds more
like a software problem. The faster components are not going to fix this
one.
9mhz is plenty slow enough for what you have stuffed.
Now I have to see if I can reproduce the problem. You are using the
ANSI version of the BIOS?
--John

As a follow-up, I slowed the clock to 9MHz using an 18.432MHz
oscillator I had handy. There was no change in the board performance. I
also checked CONFIG.SYS and I had the EMM driver installed but not the RAM
drive driver, so I installed that. The MS-RAMDRIVE driver barfs, indicating
that the EMM driver isnât loaded. So EMM4MEM that comes with the
distribution is not loading or at least not reporting any errors.
Iâll see if I have the faster glue logic in-stock. The 32k chip I know
that I do not have.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 8:14 AM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19134] SBC188 BIOS044 question
Thanks John. I'll drop an 8mhz osc in today and see what happens (I
don't have a 12 I don't think). I'm using the ANSI rom right from the
distribution archive.
Out of curiosity, if the board is now only operating marginally, would
the EMM4MEM driver fail to load? Mine loads fine and doesn't report any
errors.
Sent from my iPhone
Rich,
-044 represented a major re-write of the disk-dispatch codes. Memory /
startup code should be the same, With that ROM, Wyse version, I get 640K
reported okay. I presume you are using the ANSI version, or, perhaps, the
CVDU version. Why a different load should affect anything, I do not know..
AFAIK, wait state jumpers on the 4MEM have never had any effect,
possibly because most of the memory select lines in the 80C188 are
programmed to ignore external WAIT.
If slowing the clock from 16mhz to 12/14mhz fixes the problem, then
slower components may be to blame. I would install faster components
(LS->ALS, or F) in the following locations: 32Kmem, U10 (LS30), U24
(LS14). If a slower clock on the CPU board changes nothing, then there may
be a BDA clobber going on in the ANSI/CVDU version of the ROM.
Don't touch the ACT138. It is a fast chip, and it MUST be CMOS for
battery backup to work.
Let me know how that clock trial works.
BTW: 4MEM may be working on the timing edge. It runs like a charm on
the Mark IV at 16mhz, but fails miserably at 16.257mhz. Anything 16.00000
or below seems to be okay.
--John

John â
Itâs a 16MHz clock and a â25 memory mapping chip. This configuration
has worked perfectly since the CPU board (v.2-007) and 4MEM were built last
year. I did swap out the two 512k chips in U0/U1 but that had no impact.
The chip select chip is an ACT138 per the schematic.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 at 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19131] SBC188 BIOS044 question
I don't know offhand. What clock speed? 16Mhz is the fastest I've
ever been able to run the 4MEM with a 12ns memory mapping chip. 16Mhz is
its limit on the Mark IV, also. 16.257Mhz will not work on Mark IV.
--John

John â
I just âupgradedâ to the 044 version of the ROM (from 043) and
noticed that now the system memory count in the POST shows 544k (or
sometimes 576k) rather than 640k. Thatâs a difference of 64k or 96k,
depending.
Any ideas why this might be? The 4MEM board was untouched.
Rich
--
Rich Cini
Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
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Richard Cini

2014-12-28 13:59:15 UTC

Permalink

Yes, I have. I'm using two SanDisk 512mb cards. I have found that I get inconsistent results making the card bootable on anything other than the SBC itself.

So, I booted with a floppy disk containing DOS 6.22 and used SYS to transfer the system. It's been a while but I think I had problems with 2g cards which is how I wound up at 512mb ones -- IIRC anything below 540mb doesn't require LBA translation. It was a guess on my part so when 512mb worked I stuck with it.

Sent from my iPhone

Post by Max Scane
Gents,
Have you been able to boot from an SD card plugged into the Dual SD?
I partitioned up a 2 GB card into a 20 meg MSDOS partition and then did a format/s and copied all the dos files to it without error.
However, when I try to boot from it I get "Missing Operating system"
Any thoughts?
Max

John Coffman

2014-12-28 18:05:12 UTC

Permalink

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
<html>
<head>
<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
http-equiv="Content-Type">
</head>
<body bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000">
Max,<br>
<br>
Yes, I have seen the same phenomenon on 2Gb cards.  Perhaps Rich has
the answer below.<br>
<br>
Currently I have a DEBUG version of the Soft BIOS compiled, but have
not had the chance to step through the boot blocks being loaded.<br>
<br>
--John<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/28/2014 05:59 AM, Richard Cini wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:38B20B2B-4E87-489B-9202-***@verizon.net"
type="cite">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html;
charset=ISO-8859-1">
<div>Yes, I have. I'm using two SanDisk 512mb cards. I have found
that I get inconsistent results making the card bootable on
anything other than the SBC itself. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>So, I booted with a floppy disk containing DOS 6.22 and used
SYS to transfer the system. It's been a while but I think I had
problems with 2g cards which is how I wound up at 512mb ones --
IIRC anything below 540mb doesn't require LBA translation. It
was a guess on my part so when 512mb worked I stuck with it. <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Dec 28, 2014, at 3:01 AM, Max Scane <<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:***@gmail.com">***@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Gents,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Have you been able to boot from an SD card plugged into
the Dual SD?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I partitioned up a 2 GB card into a 20 meg MSDOS
partition and then did a format/s and copied all the dos
files to it without error.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>However, when I try to boot from it I get "Missing
Operating system"</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Any thoughts?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Max </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 7:08 AM,
Richard Cini <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@verizon.net" target="_blank">***@verizon.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="auto">
<div>John --  </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Ha! Yeah, I'm glad, too. I started putting labels
on all of my boards with the port range so I don't
do that again. Not all of my boards have them. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Have a great holiday, thanks again, and Happy New
Year!<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
On Dec 24, 2014, at 3:00 PM, John Coffman <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@gmail.com"
target="_blank">***@gmail.com</a>>
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div> Rich,<br>
<br>
Phew!  I thought there was going to be a nasty
bug to trace.<br>
<br>
The 4MEM occupies only 2 I/O addresses on the
N8VEM bus:  first board at 00+01, second board
at 02+03, ... up to 4 boards allowed by the
BIOS.  So that is why the Dual SD card, which
also occupies only 2 I/O addresses, is at
08+09.<br>
<br>
Glad you found the trouble.<br>
<br>
--John<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 12/24/2014 07:38 AM, Richard Cini wrote:
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div>Ok, itâ€™s fixed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I did test it with the CVDU and there
was no change. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>On a lark, I removed the ADIO board
that I built and it started working. I
must have thrown that board on the
SBC188 backplane and then set it aside
without thinking about the addresses.
The ADIO was configured for port 0 (and
uses 16 addresses). I pulled all of the
jumpers to change the address to 0xF0
(it uses an LS682) and it started
working. Interestingly, I also have the
Dual-SD card board installed which is at
0x08 so why it wasnâ€™t totally barfing
I donâ€™t know.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Thanks for putting me on the right
path of discovery!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Rich</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Rich Cini</div>
<div>Collector of Classic Computers</div>
<div>Build Master and lead engineer,
Altair32 Emulator</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.classiccmp.org/cini"
target="_blank">http://www.classiccmp.org/cini</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32"
target="_blank">http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32</a></div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style="font-family: Calibri;
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padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From: </span>
Richard A Cini <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@verizon.net"
target="_blank">***@verizon.net</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">Reply-To:
</span> N8VEM-Post <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@googlegroups.com"
target="_blank">***@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">Date: </span>
Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 9:23 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">To: </span>
N8VEM-Post <<a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@googlegroups.com"
target="_blank">***@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:
</span> Re: [N8VEM: 19137] SBC188
BIOS044 question<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div style="word-wrap: break-word;
color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 14px;
font-family: Calibri,sans-serif;">
<div>
<div>
<div>John â€”</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span style="white-space:
pre-wrap;"> </span>ANSI.
Right from the ZIP archive. I do
have an operational CVDU board
so if needed I could try that
version/board combo.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Rich</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Rich Cini</div>
<div>Collector of Classic
Computers</div>
<div>Build Master and lead
engineer, Altair32 Emulator</div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.classiccmp.org/cini"
target="_blank">http://www.classiccmp.org/cini</a></div>
<div><a moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32"
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</div>
</div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style="font-family: Calibri;
font-size: 11pt; text-align: left;
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none none; border-color: rgb(181,
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0in 0in;"><span
style="font-weight: bold;">From:
</span> John Coffman <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@gmail.com"
target="_blank">***@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">Reply-To:
</span> N8VEM-Post <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@googlegroups.com"
target="_blank">***@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">Date:
</span> Wednesday, December 24,
2014 at 9:17 AM<br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">To:
</span> N8VEM-Post <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@googlegroups.com"
target="_blank">***@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:
</span> Re: [N8VEM: 19136] SBC188
BIOS044 question<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">Rich,
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If the slower clock speed did
not fix the problem, then this
sounds more like a software
problem.  The faster components
are not going to fix this one.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>9mhz is plenty slow enough
for what you have stuffed.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Now I have to see if I can
reproduce the problem.  You are
using the ANSI version of the
BIOS?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--John</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Wed,
Dec 24, 2014 at 5:36 AM, Richard
Cini <span dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@verizon.net"
target="_blank">***@verizon.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote"
style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid
rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div style="word-wrap:
break-word; color: rgb(0, 0,
0); font-size: 14px;
font-family:
Calibri,sans-serif;">
<div>
<div>
<div>As a follow-up, I
slowed the clock to
9MHz using an
18.432MHz oscillator I
had handy. There was
no change in the board
performance. I also
checked CONFIG.SYS and
I had the EMM driver
installed but not the
RAM drive driver, so I
installed that. The
MS-RAMDRIVE driver
barfs, indicating that
the EMM driver isnâ€™t
loaded. So EMM4MEM
that comes with the
distribution is not
loading or at least
not reporting any
errors.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Iâ€™ll see if I
have the faster glue
logic in-stock. The
32k chip I know that I
do not have.</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Rich</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Rich Cini</div>
<div>Collector of
Classic Computers</div>
<div>Build Master
and lead engineer,
Altair32 Emulator</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.classiccmp.org/cini" target="_blank">http://www.classiccmp.org/cini</a></div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32" target="_blank">http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32</a></div>
</div>
</span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div style="font-family:
Calibri; font-size:
11pt; text-align: left;
color: black;
border-width: 1pt medium
medium; border-style:
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border-color: rgb(181,
196, 223)
-moz-use-text-color
-moz-use-text-color;
padding: 3pt 0in 0in;"><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">From: </span>
Richard A Cini <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@verizon.net" target="_blank">***@verizon.net</a>><br>
<span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Reply-To: </span>
N8VEM-Post <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">***@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Date: </span>
Wednesday, December 24,
2014 at 8:14 AM<br>
<span
style="font-weight:
bold;">To: </span>
N8VEM-Post <<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">***@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Subject: </span>
Re: [N8VEM: 19134]
SBC188 BIOS044 question<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div dir="auto">
<div>Thanks John.
I'll drop an
8mhz osc in
today and see
what happens (I
don't have a 12
I don't think).
I'm using the
ANSI rom right
from the
distribution
archive. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Out of
curiosity, if
the board is now
only operating
marginally,
would the
EMM4MEM driver
fail to load?
Mine loads fine
and doesn't
report any
errors. </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
Sent from my
iPhone</div>
<div><br>
On Dec 23, 2014,
at 11:57 PM,
John Coffman
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@gmail.com" target="_blank">***@gmail.com</a>>

wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote
type="cite">
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Rich,

<div><br>
</div>
<div>-044
represented a
major re-write
of the
disk-dispatch
codes.  Memory
/ startup code
should be the
same,  With
that ROM, Wyse
version, I get
640K reported
okay.  I
presume you
are using the
ANSI version,
or, perhaps,
the CVDU
version.  Why
a different
load should
affect
anything, I do
not know..<br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>AFAIK,
wait state
jumpers on the
4MEM have
never had any
effect,
possibly
because most
of the memory
select lines
in the 80C188
are programmed
to ignore
external WAIT.
 </div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div> If
slowing the
clock from
16mhz to
12/14mhz fixes
the problem,
then slower
components may
be to blame. 
I would
install faster
components
(LS->ALS,
or F) in the
following
locations:
 32Kmem, U10
(LS30), U24
(LS14).  If a
slower clock
on the CPU
board changes
nothing, then
there may be a
BDA clobber
going on in
the ANSI/CVDU
version of the
ROM.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Don't
touch the
ACT138.  It is
a fast chip,
and it MUST be
CMOS for
battery backup
to work.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Let me
know how that
clock trial
works.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>BTW:
 4MEM may be
working on the
timing edge. 
It runs like a
charm on the
Mark IV at
16mhz, but
fails
miserably at
16.257mhz. 
Anything
16.00000 or
below seems to
be okay.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--John</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On
Tue, Dec 23,
2014 at 7:22
PM, Richard
Cini <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:***@verizon.net"
target="_blank">***@verizon.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:
0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;
border-left:
1px solid
rgb(204, 204,
204);
padding-left:
1ex;">
<div
style="word-wrap:
break-word;
color: rgb(0,
0, 0);
font-size:
14px;
font-family:
Calibri,sans-serif;">
<div>
<div>
<div>John â€”</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="white-space:
pre-wrap;"> </span>Itâ€™s

a 16MHz clock
and a â€“25
memory mapping
chip. This
configuration
has worked
perfectly
since the CPU
board
(v.2-007) and
4MEM were
built last
year. I did
swap out the
two 512k chips
in U0/U1 but
that had no
impact. The
chip select
chip is an
ACT138 per the
schematic.</div>
<span>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Rich</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Rich Cini</div>
<div>Collector
of Classic
Computers</div>
<div>Build
Master and
lead engineer,
Altair32
Emulator</div>
<div><a
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href="http://www.classiccmp.org/cini" target="_blank">http://www.classiccmp.org/cini</a></div>
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</span></div>
</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<span>
<div
style="font-family:
Calibri;
font-size:
11pt;
text-align:
left; color:
black;
border-width:
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medium;
border-style:
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border-color:
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223)
-moz-use-text-color
-moz-use-text-color;
padding: 3pt
0in 0in;"><span
style="font-weight:
bold;">From: </span>
John Coffman
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@gmail.com" target="_blank">***@gmail.com</a>><br>
<span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Reply-To:
</span>
N8VEM-Post
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">***@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Date: </span>
Tuesday,
December 23,
2014 at 8:36
PM<br>
<span
style="font-weight:
bold;">To: </span>
N8VEM-Post
<<a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:***@googlegroups.com" target="_blank">***@googlegroups.com</a>><br>
<span
style="font-weight:
bold;">Subject:
</span> Re:
[N8VEM: 19131]
SBC188 BIOS044
question<br>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div dir="ltr">I
 don't know
offhand.  What
clock speed?
 16Mhz is the
fastest I've
ever been able
to run the
4MEM with a
12ns memory
mapping chip.
 16Mhz is its
limit on the
Mark IV, also.
 16.257Mhz
will not work
on Mark IV.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--John</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>
<div
class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div
class="gmail_quote">On

Tue, Dec 23,
2014 at 1:49
PM, Richard
Cini <span
dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:***@verizon.net"
target="_blank">***@verizon.net</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<blockquote
class="gmail_quote"
style="margin:
0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex;
border-left:
1px solid
rgb(204, 204,
204);
padding-left:
1ex;">
<div
style="word-wrap:
break-word;
color: rgb(0,
0, 0);
font-size:
14px;
font-family:
Calibri,sans-serif;">
<div>
<div>
<div>John â€”</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="white-space:
pre-wrap;"> </span>I
just
â€œupgradedâ€
to the 044
version of the
ROM (from 043)
and noticed
that now the
system memory
count in the
POST shows
544k (or
sometimes
576k) rather
than 640k.
Thatâ€™s a
difference of
64k or 96k,
depending.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><span
style="white-space:
pre-wrap;"> </span>Any

ideas why this
might be? The
4MEM board was
untouched.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>
<div>Rich</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>--</div>
<div>Rich Cini</div>
<div>Collector
of Classic
Computers</div>
<div>Build
Master and
lead engineer,
Altair32
Emulator</div>
<div><a
moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://www.classiccmp.org/cini" target="_blank">http://www.classiccmp.org/cini</a></div>
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Richard Cini

2014-12-28 18:29:24 UTC

Permalink

I tried this again this morning and if you use the HP USB Flash Drive
utility and select the option for creating a bootable disk using files in a
specific folder, you can put the DOS files into that folder (io.sys,
msdos.sys, Dblspace.bin, command.com) and the program will make it bootable.

Rich

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http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32

From: John Coffman <***@gmail.com>
Reply-To: N8VEM-Post <***@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sunday, December 28, 2014 at 1:05 PM
To: N8VEM-Post <***@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19160] SBC188 BIOS044 question

Max,

Yes, I have seen the same phenomenon on 2Gb cards. Perhaps Rich has the
answer below.

Currently I have a DEBUG version of the Soft BIOS compiled, but have not
had the chance to step through the boot blocks being loaded.

--John

Post by Richard Cini
Yes, I have. I'm using two SanDisk 512mb cards. I have found that I get
inconsistent results making the card bootable on anything other than the SBC
itself.
So, I booted with a floppy disk containing DOS 6.22 and used SYS to transfer
the system. It's been a while but I think I had problems with 2g cards which
is how I wound up at 512mb ones -- IIRC anything below 540mb doesn't require
LBA translation. It was a guess on my part so when 512mb worked I stuck with
it.
Sent from my iPhone

Post by Max Scane
Gents,
Have you been able to boot from an SD card plugged into the Dual SD?
I partitioned up a 2 GB card into a 20 meg MSDOS partition and then did a
format/s and copied all the dos files to it without error.
However, when I try to boot from it I get "Missing Operating system"
Any thoughts?
Max

Post by John Coffman
Rich,
Phew! I thought there was going to be a nasty bug to trace.
The 4MEM occupies only 2 I/O addresses on the N8VEM bus: first board at
00+01, second board at 02+03, ... up to 4 boards allowed by the BIOS. So
that is why the Dual SD card, which also occupies only 2 I/O addresses, is
at 08+09.
Glad you found the trouble.
--John

Ok, itÃ¢â¬â¢s fixed.
I did test it with the CVDU and there was no change.
On a lark, I removed the ADIO board that I built and it started working. I
must have thrown that board on the SBC188 backplane and then set it aside
without thinking about the addresses. The ADIO was configured for port 0
(and uses 16 addresses). I pulled all of the jumpers to change the address
to 0xF0 (it uses an LS682) and it started working. Interestingly, I also
have the Dual-SD card board installed which is at 0x08 so why it wasnÃ¢â¬â¢t
totally barfing I donÃ¢â¬â¢t know.
Thanks for putting me on the right path of discovery!
Rich
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Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19137] SBC188 BIOS044 question
John Ã¢â¬â
ANSI. Right from the ZIP archive. I do have an operational CVDU board so
if needed I could try that version/board combo.
Rich
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Date: Wednesday, December 24, 2014 at 9:17 AM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19136] SBC188 BIOS044 question
Rich,
If the slower clock speed did not fix the problem, then this sounds more
like a software problem. The faster components are not going to fix this
one.
9mhz is plenty slow enough for what you have stuffed.
Now I have to see if I can reproduce the problem. You are using the ANSI
version of the BIOS?
--John

Rich,
-044 represented a major re-write of the disk-dispatch codes. Memory /
startup code should be the same, With that ROM, Wyse version, I get
640K reported okay. I presume you are using the ANSI version, or,
perhaps, the CVDU version. Why a different load should affect anything,
I do not know..
AFAIK, wait state jumpers on the 4MEM have never had any effect,
possibly because most of the memory select lines in the 80C188 are
programmed to ignore external WAIT.
If slowing the clock from 16mhz to 12/14mhz fixes the problem, then
slower components may be to blame. I would install faster components
(LS->ALS, or F) in the following locations: 32Kmem, U10 (LS30), U24
(LS14). If a slower clock on the CPU board changes nothing, then there
may be a BDA clobber going on in the ANSI/CVDU version of the ROM.
Don't touch the ACT138. It is a fast chip, and it MUST be CMOS for
battery backup to work.
Let me know how that clock trial works.
BTW: 4MEM may be working on the timing edge. It runs like a charm on
the Mark IV at 16mhz, but fails miserably at 16.257mhz. Anything
16.00000 or below seems to be okay.
--John
John Ã¢â¬â
ItÃ¢â¬â¢s a 16MHz clock and a Ã¢â¬â25 memory mapping chip. This
configuration has worked perfectly since the CPU board (v.2-007) and
4MEM were built last year. I did swap out the two 512k chips in U0/U1
but that had no impact. The chip select chip is an ACT138 per the
schematic.
Rich
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Collector of Classic Computers
Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator
http://www.classiccmp.org/cini
http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
Date: Tuesday, December 23, 2014 at 8:36 PM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 19131] SBC188 BIOS044 question
I don't know offhand. What clock speed? 16Mhz is the fastest I've
ever been able to run the 4MEM with a 12ns memory mapping chip. 16Mhz
is its limit on the Mark IV, also. 16.257Mhz will not work on Mark IV.
--John
John Ã¢â¬â
I just Ã¢â¬ÅupgradedÃ¢â¬ to the 044 version of the ROM (from 043) and
noticed that now the system memory count in the POST shows 544k (or
sometimes 576k) rather than 640k. ThatÃ¢â¬â¢s a difference of 64k or 96k,
depending.
Any ideas why this might be? The 4MEM board was untouched.
Rich
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http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32
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