[N8VEM: 18175] semi-graphics

Discussion:

Frank Vanderydt

2014-06-06 16:32:12 UTC

Hi there,

Since most of the Z80180 board only support ascii mode and tty console why
not use semi-graphics like ZX81 to add some gui-like possibilities ?
It's just a thought of a future Propio update ;)

Bye,

Frank

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Alan Cox

2014-06-06 21:33:44 UTC

Permalink

There were several interesting standardish serial protocols for terminals.
Tektronix did vector graphics. DEC had sixels and various vendors had
reprogrammable characters. Ideal for Pacman !

The most featureful retro serial setup would probably in the style of the
'blit' terminal. That basically pushed UI interaction and pointer onto the
terminal itself to keep bandwidth manageable.

CP/M has a graphics RSX called GSX was was basically vector and fills. That
might be something that would work over a slow link if the work is done on
the 'terminal' end and would support things like DR Graph

Post by Frank Vanderydt
Hi there,
Since most of the Z80180 board only support ascii mode and tty console why
not use semi-graphics like ZX81 to add some gui-like possibilities ?
It's just a thought of a future Propio update ;)
Bye,
Frank
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Andrew Bingham

2014-06-07 00:35:10 UTC

Permalink

The UPD7220 has some primitive-drawing routines that can be pretty powerful.

Edward Snider

2014-06-07 01:55:38 UTC

Permalink

I noticed there is an ECB uPD7220 GDC board on the wiki.
Looks interesting. Did anyone ever do much on the software end to
see what it could do?

Ed

Post by Andrew Bingham
The UPD7220 has some primitive-drawing routines that can be pretty powerful.

'Andrew Lynch' via N8VEM

2014-06-07 12:41:46 UTC

Permalink

Hi

There is basic Z80 CP/M test software for the uPD7220 on the wiki.

There are also photos of the board working.

Thanks and have a nice day!

Andrew Lynch

From: n8vem-/***@public.gmane.org [mailto:n8vem-/***@public.gmane.org] On Behalf Of Edward Snider
Sent: Friday, June 6, 2014 9:56 PM
To: n8vem-/***@public.gmane.org
Subject: [N8VEM: 18178] Re: semi-graphics

I noticed there is an ECB uPD7220 GDC board on the wiki.

Looks interesting. Did anyone ever do much on the software end to

see what it could do?

Ed

On Friday, June 6, 2014 7:35:11 PM UTC-5, Andrew Bingham wrote:

The UPD7220 has some primitive-drawing routines that can be pretty powerful.

On Friday, June 6, 2014 9:32:12 AM UTC-7, Frank Vanderydt wrote:

Hi there,

Since most of the Z80180 board only support ascii mode and tty console why not use semi-graphics like ZX81 to add some gui-like possibilities ?
It's just a thought of a future Propio update ;)

Bye,

Frank
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Frank Vanderydt

2014-06-07 04:30:30 UTC

Permalink

Well, but 7220Âµpd has only a test program for 80188, so i don't think
anybody has tried using it for Z80/Z180, would be cool to have a SVGA
resolution on a Z80 and i bought 6 of them from ebay.
The concept VGA really got my attention and looks like an interesting
project to me.

Is there a true VGA/SVGA project that really uses a buffered display and
not a terminal setup ?
I would like to understand VGA/SVGA on a hardware level, how does CP/M
interacts with the VGA chip ?

Post by Andrew Bingham
The UPD7220 has some primitive-drawing routines that can be pretty powerful.

Andrew Bingham

2014-06-07 05:03:39 UTC

Permalink

I don't think you can implement a memory mapped graphics VGA display on an
8-bit machine - it would take up too much of the address space or not fit
at all.

That leaves a character mapped display as an option which is what the 7220
does in higher resolution modes like 800x600

Post by Frank Vanderydt
Well, but 7220Âµpd has only a test program for 80188, so i don't think
anybody has tried using it for Z80/Z180, would be cool to have a SVGA
resolution on a Z80 and i bought 6 of them from ebay.
The concept VGA really got my attention and looks like an interesting
project to me.
Is there a true VGA/SVGA project that really uses a buffered display and
not a terminal setup ?
I would like to understand VGA/SVGA on a hardware level, how does CP/M
interacts with the VGA chip ?

Post by Andrew Bingham
The UPD7220 has some primitive-drawing routines that can be pretty powerful.

Alan Cox

2014-06-07 06:34:00 UTC

Permalink

VGA is banked even on a PC. You would need even more banks that is all.
SVGA would be far easier in most cases as many SVGA chips such as the S3
have both acceleration to avoid swamping the CPU and cpu blit functions so
you can upload blocks into graphics memory without all the remapping
overhead.

Alan

Post by Andrew Bingham
I don't think you can implement a memory mapped graphics VGA display on an
8-bit machine - it would take up too much of the address space or not fit
at all.
That leaves a character mapped display as an option which is what the 7220
does in higher resolution modes like 800x600

Post by Andrew Bingham
The UPD7220 has some primitive-drawing routines that can be pretty powerful.

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Tregare

2014-06-07 09:20:06 UTC

Permalink

Iirc the rainbow had a upd7220 option and it worked from cp/m 86 and cp/m
80. Also the video of the nec 8801 that my brother had was a 7220

Post by Andrew Bingham
The UPD7220 has some primitive-drawing routines that can be pretty powerful.

John Coffman

2014-06-07 13:19:53 UTC

Permalink

<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
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<meta content="text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1"
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BTW:  I was the author of the test program for the SBC-188 / uPD7220
combination.  The board was first brought up at 640x480, 16-colors. 
Going to a 40Mhz (from 25Mhz) oscillator allowed 800x600 SVGA
graphics.  This is the limit of most of the 7220 chips. 
 
The 7220 talks to the outside world over an 8-bit interface.  The
CPU sends it commands to perform its various operations:  line
drawing, memory read/write, "character draw", ...  Unfortunately,
'bitblt' operations looked to be pretty cumbersome, and interest in
the board waned. 
 
AFAIK, there was never any software done with the Z80, beyond
establishing communication with the board to prove it worked on that
platform. 
 
--John 
 
 
 
 
On 06/06/2014 09:30 PM, Frank Vanderydt wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:ee86ab6a-4160-4a76-aedb-825a5ba88181-/***@public.gmane.org"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Well, but 7220Âµpd has only a test program for
80188, so i don't think anybody has tried using it for Z80/Z180,
would be cool to have a SVGA resolution on a Z80 and i bought 6
of them from ebay. 
The concept VGA really got my attention and looks like an
interesting project to me. 
 
Is there a true VGA/SVGA project that really uses a buffered
display and not a terminal setup ? 
I would like to understand VGA/SVGA on a hardware level, how
does CP/M interacts with the VGA chip ? 
 
Op zaterdag 7 juni 2014 02:35:11 UTC+2 schreef Andrew Bingham:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">The UPD7220 has some primitive-drawing routines
that can be pretty powerful. 
 
On Friday, June 6, 2014 9:32:12 AM UTC-7, Frank Vanderydt
wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">Hi there, 
 
Since most of the Z80180 board only support ascii mode
and tty console why not use semi-graphics like ZX81 to
add some gui-like possibilities ? 
It's just a thought of a future Propio update ;) 
 
Bye, 
 
Frank 
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
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Andrew Bingham

2014-06-07 19:07:55 UTC

Permalink

I found in reading the datasheet and comparing to the other things
available that in a lot of ways the 7220 was ahead of it's time. The
display controllers that IBM had at the time were pretty "dumb" compared to
what it could do.

BTW: I was the author of the test program for the SBC-188 / uPD7220
combination. The board was first brought up at 640x480, 16-colors. Going
to a 40Mhz (from 25Mhz) oscillator allowed 800x600 SVGA graphics. This is
the limit of most of the 7220 chips.
The 7220 talks to the outside world over an 8-bit interface. The CPU
sends it commands to perform its various operations: line drawing, memory
read/write, "character draw", ... Unfortunately, 'bitblt' operations
looked to be pretty cumbersome, and interest in the board waned.
AFAIK, there was never any software done with the Z80, beyond establishing
communication with the board to prove it worked on that platform.
--John
Well, but 7220ÃÂµpd has only a test program for 80188, so i don't think
anybody has tried using it for Z80/Z180, would be cool to have a SVGA
resolution on a Z80 and i bought 6 of them from ebay.
The concept VGA really got my attention and looks like an interesting
project to me.
Is there a true VGA/SVGA project that really uses a buffered display and
not a terminal setup ?
I would like to understand VGA/SVGA on a hardware level, how does CP/M
interacts with the VGA chip ?

Post by Andrew Bingham
The UPD7220 has some primitive-drawing routines that can be pretty powerful.

Frank Vanderydt

2014-06-07 19:41:34 UTC

Permalink

Thanks for the info John.. i will start working with the propio first..
let's check if it's compatible with N8.

Post by Andrew Bingham
The UPD7220 has some primitive-drawing routines that can be pretty powerful.