Discussion:
[N8VEM: 16289] Can CP/M read DOS disks?
Bob Devries
2013-10-17 06:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Hi all,

Is there a programme which runs on CP/M (ZETA) to read DOS disks?

Regards, Bob Devries
Dalby, QLD, Australia
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Max Scane
2013-10-17 09:19:08 UTC
Permalink
FAT file systems use 512 byte sectors so you would need to bypass the BIOS and talk directly to the driver. Does ROMWBW have an API that would let you access the driver?

FAT 16 and 32 (hard disks) is straightforward fat 12 (floppy) is a bit trickier.

Cheers!

Max

Sent from my iPad
Post by Bob Devries
Hi all,
Is there a programme which runs on CP/M (ZETA) to read DOS disks?
Regards, Bob Devries
Dalby, QLD, Australia
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Wayne Warthen
2013-10-17 14:22:53 UTC
Permalink
I am not aware of any application currently in existence to do this.

Yes, RomWBW has a well documented API for direct access to any block
storage device (see the RomWBW System Architecture document in the
distribution).

If you wanted to write such an application, there are two alternative
interface points into the system you could use:

1. You could make direct calls to the HBIOS. This would allow you to
use the native 512 byte sectors and bypasses all aspects of CP/M entirely,
but would work only under RomWBW (not any other N8VEM ROMs or other CP/M
systems).
2. You could make calls to the CP/M CBIOS. You would need to deal with
translating the 128 byte CP/M records into the 512 byte sectors of DOS, but
this can certainly be done. In theory, this approach could be portable
across ROMs and other CP/M systems.

Thanks,

Wayne
Post by Max Scane
FAT file systems use 512 byte sectors so you would need to bypass the BIOS
and talk directly to the driver. Does ROMWBW have an API that would let
you access the driver?
FAT 16 and 32 (hard disks) is straightforward fat 12 (floppy) is a bit trickier.
Cheers!
Max
Sent from my iPad
Hi all,
Is there a programme which runs on CP/M (ZETA) to read DOS disks?
Regards, Bob Devries
Dalby, QLD, Australia
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John Coffman
2013-10-17 14:43:45 UTC
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The Mini-68K BIOS contains code to read FAT file systems.&nbsp; I know
FAT16 is read, and FAT32 is not.&nbsp; I don't remember if FAT12 is in
the code.&nbsp; The code is in C, so it should not be hard to adapt.<br>
<br>
--John<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/17/2013 07:22 AM, Wayne Warthen wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:fa76201d-4634-495f-8ffb-547210434dec-/***@public.gmane.org"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">I am not aware of any application currently in
existence to do this.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Yes, RomWBW has a well documented API for direct access to
any block storage device (see the RomWBW System Architecture
document in the distribution).</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>If you wanted to write such an application, there are two
alternative interface points into the system you could use:</div>
<div>
<ol>
<li><span style="line-height: normal;">You could make direct
calls to the HBIOS. &nbsp;This would allow you to use the
native 512 byte sectors and bypasses all aspects of CP/M
entirely, but would work only under RomWBW (not any
other N8VEM ROMs or other CP/M systems).</span></li>
<li><span style="line-height: normal;">You could make calls
to the CP/M CBIOS. &nbsp;You would need to deal with
translating the 128 byte CP/M records into the 512 byte
sectors of DOS, but this can certainly be done. &nbsp;In
theory, this approach could be portable across ROMs and
other CP/M systems.</span></li>
</ol>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Wayne</div>
<br>
On Thursday, October 17, 2013 2:19:08 AM UTC-7, Max Scane
wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="auto">
<div>FAT file systems use 512 byte sectors so you would
need to bypass the BIOS and talk directly to the driver.
&nbsp;Does ROMWBW have an API that would let you access the
driver?</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>FAT 16 and 32 (hard disks) is straightforward fat 12
(floppy) is a bit trickier.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Cheers!</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Max<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><br>
On 17 Oct 2013, at 5:30 pm, "Bob Devries" &lt;<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="javascript:"
target="_blank" gdf-obfuscated-mailto="ZDwuXCaYMacJ">devri...-***@public.gmane.org</a>&gt;
wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Hi all,</font></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Is there a programme
which runs on CP/M (ZETA) to read DOS disks?</font></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Regards, Bob Devries</font></div>
<div><font face="Arial" size="2">Dalby, QLD, Australia</font></div>
<div>&nbsp;</div>
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opticpow
2013-10-20 03:46:50 UTC
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Would the other direction be more viable? ie, a Linux or Windows driver to
read CPM Disks?
John Coffman
2013-10-20 06:04:41 UTC
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There is a package named "cpmtools" for both Linux and DOS/Windows
which can read and write CP/M disks.<br>
<br>
Commands include:&nbsp; cpmls, cpmcp, cpmrm, ...&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (U**x&nbsp; ls, cp, rm,
...)<br>
<br>
--John<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
On 10/19/2013 08:46 PM, opticpow wrote:
<blockquote
cite="mid:b24c5ff9-8121-4e65-916f-71f96073b9b5-/***@public.gmane.org"
type="cite">
<div dir="ltr">Would the other direction be more viable? ie, a
Linux or Windows driver to read CPM Disks?<br>
<br>
Wayne<br>
</div>
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Tregare
2013-10-20 10:33:07 UTC
Permalink
22disk also IIRC
**
There is a package named "cpmtools" for both Linux and DOS/Windows which
can read and write CP/M disks.
Commands include: cpmls, cpmcp, cpmrm, ... (U**x ls, cp, rm, ...)
--John
Would the other direction be more viable? ie, a Linux or Windows driver to
read CPM Disks?
Wayne
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Bob Devries
2013-10-21 00:45:13 UTC
Permalink
Ah, that's interesting... I will try out cpmtools.

Which format (disk-type) should I use to read the disks I use on my ZETA using 1.4MiB disks?

Perhaps a few N8VEM style defs should be added to the disk-defs file?
Here's what appears to be required:

Sector size in bytes
Number of tracks
Number of sectors
Block size
Number of directory entries
Logical sector skew
Number of reserved system tracks


Regards, Bob Devries
Dalby, QLD, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: John Coffman
To: n8vem-/***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 16304] Can CP/M read DOS disks?


There is a package named "cpmtools" for both Linux and DOS/Windows which can read and write CP/M disks.

Commands include: cpmls, cpmcp, cpmrm, ... (U**x ls, cp, rm, ...)

--John



On 10/19/2013 08:46 PM, opticpow wrote:
Would the other direction be more viable? ie, a Linux or Windows driver to read CPM Disks?

Wayne
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Wayne Warthen
2013-10-21 03:16:09 UTC
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I am attaching an updated diskdefs file that includes entries at the end
for all 4 floppy media sizes RomWBW supports (720K and 1.44M in 3.5"; 360K
and 1.2M in 5.25")

I did not test these, but suspect they are correct.

Thanks,

Wayne
Post by Bob Devries
Ah, that's interesting... I will try out cpmtools.
Which format (disk-type) should I use to read the disks I use on my ZETA
using 1.4MiB disks?
Perhaps a few N8VEM style defs should be added to the disk-defs file?
Sector size in bytes
Number of tracks
Number of sectors
Block size
Number of directory entries
Logical sector skew
Number of reserved system tracks
Regards, Bob Devries
Dalby, QLD, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: John Coffman
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 16304] Can CP/M read DOS disks?
There is a package named "cpmtools" for both Linux and DOS/Windows which
can read and write CP/M disks.
Commands include: cpmls, cpmcp, cpmrm, ... (U**x ls, cp, rm, ...)
--John
Would the other direction be more viable? ie, a Linux or Windows driver to read CPM Disks?
Wayne
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Bob Devries
2013-10-21 04:01:22 UTC
Permalink
Thanks, Wayne. I'll give that a try.

Regards, Bob Devries
Dalby, QLD, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: Wayne Warthen
To: n8vem-/***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Monday, October 21, 2013 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 16313] Can CP/M read DOS disks?


I am attaching an updated diskdefs file that includes entries at the end for all 4 floppy media sizes RomWBW supports (720K and 1.44M in 3.5"; 360K and 1.2M in 5.25")


I did not test these, but suspect they are correct.



Thanks,


Wayne

On Sunday, October 20, 2013 5:45:13 PM UTC-7, Bob Devries wrote:
Ah, that's interesting... I will try out cpmtools.

Which format (disk-type) should I use to read the disks I use on my ZETA using 1.4MiB disks?

Perhaps a few N8VEM style defs should be added to the disk-defs file?
Here's what appears to be required:

Sector size in bytes
Number of tracks
Number of sectors
Block size
Number of directory entries
Logical sector skew
Number of reserved system tracks


Regards, Bob Devries
Dalby, QLD, Australia

----- Original Message -----
From: John Coffman
To: n8...-/***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 16304] Can CP/M read DOS disks?


There is a package named "cpmtools" for both Linux and DOS/Windows which can read and write CP/M disks.

Commands include: cpmls, cpmcp, cpmrm, ... (U**x ls, cp, rm, ...)

--John



On 10/19/2013 08:46 PM, opticpow wrote:
Would the other direction be more viable? ie, a Linux or Windows driver to read CPM Disks?

Wayne

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John Coffman
2013-10-21 13:31:31 UTC
Permalink
diskdef n8vem144
seclen 512
tracks 160
sectrk 18
blocksize 2048
maxdir 256
skew 0
boottrk 2
os 2.2
end

diskdef n8vem720
seclen 512
tracks 160
sectrk 9
blocksize 2048
maxdir 128
skew 0
boottrk 4
os 2.2
end
Wayne Warthen
2013-10-22 14:50:59 UTC
Permalink
Thanks John. You are absolutely right of course. The "tracks" parameter
in all of my floppy definitions need to be doubled.

--Wayne
Wayne, Bob,
Here are the 'diskdefs' I've been using for 3.5" disks.
Note: 'tracks' is 160
In the days of CP/M disks were one-sided. So the # of tracks is doubled.
Note: 'skew' is 0.
I've never figured out this variable. So, ???
--John
Thanks, Wayne. I'll give that a try.
Regards, Bob Devries
Dalby, QLD, Australia
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Wayne Warthen <javascript:>
*Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 1:16 PM
*Subject:* Re: [N8VEM: 16313] Can CP/M read DOS disks?
I am attaching an updated diskdefs file that includes entries at the end
for all 4 floppy media sizes RomWBW supports (720K and 1.44M in 3.5"; 360K
and 1.2M in 5.25")
I did not test these, but suspect they are correct.
Thanks,
Wayne
Post by Bob Devries
Ah, that's interesting... I will try out cpmtools.
Which format (disk-type) should I use to read the disks I use on my ZETA
using 1.4MiB disks?
Perhaps a few N8VEM style defs should be added to the disk-defs file?
Sector size in bytes
Number of tracks
Number of sectors
Block size
Number of directory entries
Logical sector skew
Number of reserved system tracks
Regards, Bob Devries
Dalby, QLD, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: John Coffman
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 16304] Can CP/M read DOS disks?
There is a package named "cpmtools" for both Linux and DOS/Windows which
can read and write CP/M disks.
Commands include: cpmls, cpmcp, cpmrm, ... (U**x ls, cp, rm, ...)
--John
Would the other direction be more viable? ie, a Linux or Windows driver
to read CPM Disks?
Wayne
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Wayne Warthen
2013-10-22 15:17:00 UTC
Permalink
Oh and regarding the skew parameter, I am a bit confused on that also. I
have always used 1 on the hard disk images without issues. If you have
successfully used 0 for the floppy definitions, I guess that is fine.
Post by Wayne Warthen
Thanks John. You are absolutely right of course. The "tracks" parameter
in all of my floppy definitions need to be doubled.
--Wayne
Wayne, Bob,
Here are the 'diskdefs' I've been using for 3.5" disks.
Note: 'tracks' is 160
In the days of CP/M disks were one-sided. So the # of tracks is doubled.
Note: 'skew' is 0.
I've never figured out this variable. So, ???
--John
Thanks, Wayne. I'll give that a try.
Regards, Bob Devries
Dalby, QLD, Australia
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Wayne Warthen
*Sent:* Monday, October 21, 2013 1:16 PM
*Subject:* Re: [N8VEM: 16313] Can CP/M read DOS disks?
I am attaching an updated diskdefs file that includes entries at the
end for all 4 floppy media sizes RomWBW supports (720K and 1.44M in 3.5";
360K and 1.2M in 5.25")
I did not test these, but suspect they are correct.
Thanks,
Wayne
Post by Bob Devries
Ah, that's interesting... I will try out cpmtools.
Which format (disk-type) should I use to read the disks I use on my ZETA
using 1.4MiB disks?
Perhaps a few N8VEM style defs should be added to the disk-defs file?
Sector size in bytes
Number of tracks
Number of sectors
Block size
Number of directory entries
Logical sector skew
Number of reserved system tracks
Regards, Bob Devries
Dalby, QLD, Australia
----- Original Message -----
From: John Coffman
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 4:04 PM
Subject: Re: [N8VEM: 16304] Can CP/M read DOS disks?
There is a package named "cpmtools" for both Linux and DOS/Windows which
can read and write CP/M disks.
Commands include: cpmls, cpmcp, cpmrm, ... (U**x ls, cp, rm, ...)
--John
Would the other direction be more viable? ie, a Linux or Windows driver
to read CPM Disks?
Wayne
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Wayne Warthen
2013-10-28 02:03:37 UTC
Permalink
One more post on "skew" (as it relates to cpmtools).

I did a little testing today and I'm pretty confident in saying that the
skew parameter in cpmtools refers directly to the concept in CPM 2.2 of
sector translation. The CPM 2.2 manual describes this as skew and it is
analogous to logical sector interleaving (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interleaving_(disk_storage)). I did a binary
compare of an image created with skew 1 vs. skew 2. With skew 2, the
binary data is interleaved on 512 byte boundaries. Essentially, skew 2
means the same thing as a 2:1 interleave. Again, this is a *logical* interleave.
N8VEM projects do not use logical sector interleaving at all. When
interleaving is implemented, it is done as a physical interleave applied at
the time the media is formatted. So, as far as cpmtools is concerned, the
skew should be 1 (ie. 1:1).

Regarding the use of skew 0, there is really no such thing. It appears
that cpmtools treats skew 0 as skew 1 -- they both result in a logical
sector interleave of 1:1. A binary compare of images created using skew 0
vs. skew 1 are identical.

Thanks,

Wayne
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